Ok so I'm going to say it

[lizzie_and_ari]

I find The Atheist Bus Campaign really offensive.

Oh yeah she did.

Lxxx

Comments

[daisyflip.livejournal.com]

Hmm...pray tell why?

[marrog.livejournal.com]

I second the question.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Well...a few things.

Largely, I dislike fundamentalism, and this is fundamentalist atheism. It embodies quite a lot I dislike about atheism - it's cool to blog about and respected because there is a perception that atheism is the more educated viewpoint. This is bollocks. It is impossible to prove something does not exist. (Personally, I think that a lot of atheists are in fact less intelligent - they can't cope with the idea of something they cannot write down, add up or touch. That's slightly a side point - and I say 'a lot of' not 'all').

Also - why? I can understand a Christian, for example, believing that Jesus Is The Way and following Jesus is the only possible way to be happy after death. Whilst I disagree with proselytising, I do believe that when a religious person tries to convert others, the base reason for this is essentially to help them. Why try and convert people to atheism? If religion is a crutch, why take people's crutches away from them just to watch them flailing?

Essentially, someone could be wandering around emotionally wounded and the one thing that is holding them together is their faith. They see the bus - they are likely to throw themselves under it.

If the campaign said 'Some people don't believe in God. Get over it' or 'Care for your fellow man - because of humankindness rather than to obey your religion' (or something catchier maybe), then it'd be different. 'There probably isn't a God' is just cruel and also pointless.

[meaningrequired.livejournal.com]

I agree with your point about faith and how some people rely on it to keep on going.

Its the kind of problem I have with some humanists. Instead of saying "yay we're all human, lets support each other" they very quickly turn into god bashers.

I often find the creationism vs evolution debates exhausting because neither side is willing to listen to the other and merely want to defend their perspective.

[andrewducker]

a) This isn't fundamentalist atheism. Fundamentalist atheism says "There is no God.", no "probably" about it.
b) It's there as an awareness-raising device and for social normalisation - there are adverts for religion on the side of buses, and the more it permeates culture the more people assume that because it's everywhere unchallenged it's ok. Getting the other side out there is important.

Nobody is telling people they can't think what they like - but getting ideas out there so that people can consider all alternatives can only be a good thing in my book.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

What is it raising awareness of?

[henriksdal.livejournal.com]

I thought it was a helpful and interesting way for non-believers to find out about the humanist society, which a lot of people might not know about and be pleased to get more info on.

Personally I find religion massively offensive on a whole range of levels, but hey, what can you do! If only people would stop using it as an excuse for inflicting hatred, suffering and death on a grand scale to vast swathes of humanity across the globe I might be more enamoured toward it.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you just said except for the 'helpful and interesting way' part.

[henriksdal.livejournal.com]

"awareness raising" might have been a better way to put it.. do you really think non-believers are less intelligent than believers?

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

No. I think they can be. Some people use religion as a way of explaining things they cannot understand. Some people use atheism as a way of explaining things they cannot understand.

I said that as a counterbalance to the elitist view that atheism is the more inteligent route.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

I don't really want to jump into this, but one point - the message "There's probably no God" can be, for some people, a really important, positive thing to hear. I do understand that for many other people, the belief that there is a deity is a source of comfort.

[daisyflip.livejournal.com]

I agree - I think that generations of people grow up with the assumption that they are Christian/Muslim/whatever, because that's what everyone else around them is. It's quite often associated with guilt, with out-dated morality and with make believe rules. (And yes, I know there are good elements). I think making people aware that it's ok to question these beliefs, step outside the confines of religion and just breathe a sigh of good old-fashioned agnostic air.

Religion makes my stomach hurt with irritation. I'm with John Lennon on the whole getting rid of it thing. However, I don't think this is going to really rock the worlds of anyone with moderately strong faith. And hey, if they're offended, at least they have pretty churches to hang out in before I buy them all and turn them into gorgeous houses.

I also think it's fairly important to counter-balance buses with bible quotations on the side of them.

[marrog.livejournal.com]

yes, what she said

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

"There's probably no God" can be, for some people, a really important, positive thing to hear.

Why? No being argumentative, just I'd love for an expansion of this.

[andrewducker]

Because it frees them from the social tyrrany imposed on them by their parents/culture to conform to the rules they've been told are laid down by God.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

There are no rules in this culture that we are expected to conform to because we've been told they've been laid down by God.

I don't normally make sweeping statements like this, but I really can't think of any.

But say there are, and to take the parents analogy: you are told, for example: You can't be gay, god says so. The only counterpoint to this is not 'there is no god'.

When I first started drinking, I had a lot of beer and threw up. I knew that drinking a lot of beer was not good. I was faced with several options:
1. Give up alcohol.
2. Try different kinds of alcohol
3. Drink less beer.

If you want to liberate people you need to show them all of their options.

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Because some people have been raised in an environment where there's no option but to believe in a vengeful being who watches you at all times and will punish you for the slightest mistake, for example. Or who has already damned you unless you persuade yourself that having sex with your boy/girlfriend was evil. Or will throw you in a lake of fire if you admit you're gay.

And whilst many people are happy to be religious, it doesn't fit some people very well, but they may not realise they have an option.

[dantesvendetta.livejournal.com]

I actually agree. I'm a happy fuzzy agnostic, and I just see this as antagonistic. It seems like it was made to be controverstial, but maybe that's because I'm not strongly affiliated to anyone. Confusion rules!

Also, their use of the word 'probably' annoys me. And I agree with your below comments about some atheists thinking that their faith (and yes, it's a faith) has a right above all others, and it's sometimes just neatly packaged fundamentalism. You find fundies bloody everywhere!

Also, my beloved believes in God, and he worries less than I do.

Also (I use the word also too much), this comic might make you laugh.

[meaningrequired.livejournal.com]

I was thinking this morning that perhaps the thing with your and Andy's argument is looking at cost benefit.

He sees more cost in being religious and more benefit in being free from oppression.

I tried on about three different curches on for size, and dint have a great time at the "newer" ones But if I ended up, completely and utterly alone in a city, and all my attempts at making friends failed, I'd probably join a church; I think they do a lot of good things for people. However I have also been subjected to being told that I should feel bad about myself for previous behaviour (being interested in paganism), and I feel if I went to one of those churches in particular now; they'd have a much longer list of things I should be feeling guilty about.

Whereas, I thought you saw more benefit (for some maybe?) to being religious and greater costs to having that removed, or shaken by the atheist bus.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Yes, I see far greater benefit in having a belief system than not.

Organised religion, on the other hand... yes churches and the like have done amazing and important things for their community, but can be huge tools of oppression.

This campaign just doesn't seem to be 'religious organisations v atheism', which would be fine, but 'belief in a higher power v atheism' which isn't.

You should be free from oppression whether you're religious or not. I don't see that they're mutually exclusive.

[andrewducker]

This campaign just doesn't seem to be 'religious organisations v atheism', which would be fine, but 'belief in a higher power v atheism' which isn't

Might I ask why not?

[cairmen.livejournal.com]

Can I just clarify here?

Are you saying

a) I don't believe that it's a good idea to campaign against belief in a higher power

or

b) I don't believe people should be allowed to campaign against belief in a higher power

?

I'm assuming it's probably a), but I wanted to check.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_missfliss_/]

This is the first LJ debate I have bothered to read through in about three years and it was very interesting.

I had just fallen so easily into 'atheist bus campaign GOOD' camp that I and all my philsoc friends naturally occupy, that I had not given much thought to the rightness of it.

I still think the campaign is acceptable but I think Lizzie made some really good points against it, which have tempered my belief in its rightness.

It is worth noting that if you support the atheist bus campaign, you cannot then be angered by pro-religion campaigns. Because that would be double standards. Double standards BAD.

[lizzie-and-ari.livejournal.com]

Yes thank you that sums up a lot of what I'm trying to say!

[daisyflip.livejournal.com]

I've totally lost track of the argument, because I have no concentration for anything beyond 7 comments, but was reading this today and thought I'd chuck it in there for shits and giggles:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=32985131033#/topic.php?uid=32985131033&topic=7423